More Unanswered Questions on Pre-93 Issues
EDITOR’S NOTE – Aug 29, 2011: Irv Muchnick just posted a real perspective on the NFLPA’s ‘Legacy Fund’ this morning. Click HERE to read ‘Legacy Fund’ an Obvious Throwaway Line of CBA.
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Another exchange of e-mails from this past week with lots of great questions and points between Jim McFarland and Dewey McClain followed by Sam McCullum’s subsequent non-answer at the end. No one seems to have any clear definitions on what has or hasn’t been “negotiated” on behalf of retired players – all without any actual input or participation from the retirees themselves. We still keep wondering when the NFLPA managed to get all this done during the time they weren’t supposed to be a Union when they were decertified and now they’re trying to tell everyone that they’re still negotiating. Were you negotiating then or are you negotiating now? Were you a Union then or are you a Union now? And everyone was first asked to wait 30 days for definitive answers. Then it was 60 days. And now it’s apparently 90 days out. Could it be the old adage that the more lies you put out at the beginning makes it harder to come back to the truth at the end?
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The e-mails are in chronological order starting with the earliest at the beginning:
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From: Jim McFarland
Subject: Pre-93 and Post-93 Benefits Comparison
Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 4:47 PM
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Dear Fellow Former Player Board of Director Members:
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A former NFL player who used to attend our annual conventions, but attends no longer, contacted me this past week to ask why all Post-93 players with 4 or more credited seasons need to receive a Legacy Benefit payment. He discussed a comparison between a Pre-93 player and a Post-93 player to make a point.
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COMPARISON OF A PRE-93 PLAYER TO A POST-93 PLAYER (BOTH WITH 4 CREDITED SEASONS PRIOR TO 1993)
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Consider two former NFL players, one a Pre-93 player and one a Post-93 player. The Pre-93 player has 4 credited seasons from 1969 to 1972 and is now 65 years of age. The Post-93 player has 4 pre-93 credited seasons from 1989 to 1992, and an additional 6 credited seasons from 1993 to 1998. He is now 45 years of age.
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According to the current NFLPA legacy benefit proposal, the Pre-93 player will apparently receive $456 per month legacy fund benefit (4 X $114) starting at his present age of 65. The Post-93 player will also apparently receive $456 per month legacy fund benefit (4 X $114) starting at his present age of 45.
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DIFFERENCE IN LEGACY BENEFIT ($109,440??)
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The former NFL player assumed that the Pre-93 player and Post-93 player would live to the same age, say 75. In that event, the Pre-93 player will receive 10 years of legacy fund benefit. The Post-93 player will in contrast receive 30 years of legacy fund benefit. Therefore, the Post-93 player will receive 20 more years of legacy fund benefit (30 yrs. less 10 yrs.) than the Pre-93 player will receive. Thus, the Post-93 player will apparently receive a total of $109,440 ($456 x 12 mos. x 20 years) more legacy fund benefit than the Pre-93 player.
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ADDITIONAL BENEFITS FOR POST-93 PLAYER
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The Post-93 player will also receive, or even has received, additional benefits that the Pre-93 player will never receive. Such additional benefits apparently include the following:
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1. Severance Payment Benefit
2. 5 Years of Free Health Insurance Coverage
3. Second Career Savings Plan Benefit
4. Health Reimbursement Account
5. NFL Annuity Plan
6. Tuition Assistance Account
7. Possible Player Performance Bonus Benefits
8. Greater Bert Bell Pension Benefits (Higher Credited Season amount of $470 per mo. in 1998 v. $250 per mo. in 1972 at age 55)
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QUESTION FOR CONSIDERATION
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My former NFL player friend asked me if this Post-93 player necessarily needs a $456 per month legacy fund benefit in addition to all his other benefits at age 45 in comparison to the Pre-93 player at age 65. What should I tell him?
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Sincerely,
Jim McFarland
NFLPA Former Players Board of Directors Member
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From: Dewey Mcclain
Sent: Wed, Aug 24, 2011
Subject: Re: Pre-93 and Post-93 Benefits Comparison
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Jim, thanks for your efforts and keeping us informed on the Legacy Fund or Benefit as it was proposed to the owners on last week. As I read your question of what you should tell your friend, I always have told the truth and that is what you should do…Everyone of us on this e list wished we had played in 2010 or will play in 2011 but that will not happen now or in the future.We must work with what we have and when we were born.You and I both know if anyone took a pension at 45 they took a severe penalty and part of the 98 agreement was No early pensions or 45…and if a person took his pension at 45 his Legacy Benefit would probably put him at the benefit he would of gotten at 55.You and I know there were lots of guys who took their pensions at 45 and are now 65 are hurting , because of the selection they made,SS adjustment or 20 year, not good choices, but when it comes down to the care of ones family and what is needed for me and my family,those choices were made knowing that this will effect our future income in some way…As a kid growing up in the 60′s , the 3 R’s were taught,Respect for self,Respect for others and Responsibility for your actions/choices…I still believe in those 3 R’s today…
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We must find away to unite all former players ,not divide and the only way I think that can be done is finding common ground that all can agree on…The players of today really learned from the mistakes former players made in the past and we should be proud and grateful,that they are not making the same ones…With that said, we all (former players) would like to know what was approved in the CBA Legacy,when will it go into effect,etc… so,until that document has been signed,all i’s dotted,t’s crossed and the ink is dry…we are speculating and assuming,which is not good for morale to us as former players…
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So, what you tell or do with anyone of us as former players, tell us the truth as best you can with out confidential information being involved…for it is the parts of information that tends to get the wheels and us turning…I have gotten many questions that I can not answer and do know if I wait until the document is released many of those answers will be on it and if not,that is when I/we as former players should ask our elected leadership…
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Your answer to the question is the same from when I started this e…we were born when we were and played when we played if we could select the era…we all would select this one for more than one reason… glad we got rid of the pre-59′ers situation in 2000…now it is pre 93…
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Always
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Dewey McClain,
Past President
Atlanta Chapter-NFL PA
2010 & 2011 NFL PA Chapter of the Year
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From: Jim McFarland
Subject: Who Has the Greater Legacy?
Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011
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Dear Dewey,
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Thank you for your insightful comments. We certainly agree that we need to try to help guys who had to take their pensions at 45 and are now getting only a few hundred dollars a month pensions at 65. We also certainly agree that we need to address the disparity between the benefits received by pre-93 and post-93 players by increasing benefits for players who played before 1993. The question is: How are these goals best achieved and how do we benefit players who played both before and after 1993?
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Actually, my NFL player friend and I visited yesterday about these issues. We discussed both issues with regard to the players receiving only a few hundred dollars a month pension and the players who played before and after 1993.
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PLAYERS RECEIVING LESS THAN $500 PER MONTH PENSION
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The NFLPA’s apparent proposal to establish a floor of $500 per month for pension benefits and then provide $114 per month per credited season is one way to try to address the issues. My friend and I, however, agreed that there may be better alternatives to addressing this concern. For example, guaranteeing at least a $1,000 per month minimum benefit increase might be more beneficial to these players, particularly those with 8 credited seasons or less. A player with 5 credited seasons currently getting $250 per month under the NFLPA proposal would presumably receive $500 per month plus $570 (5 X $114) for a total of $1,070 per month. That same player receiving a $1,000+ flat increase in pension benefits would continue receiving his $250 per month pension plus $1,000+ for a total of $1,250+ per month. Thus, this player would benefit by more than $180+ per month ($1,250+ less $1,070) under a guaranteed minimum increase of $1,000+ per month than under the current NFLPA proposal.
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That is just one alternative proposal for players currently receiving less than $500 per month in pension benefits. There are many others which could be considered as well that my friend and I agreed might be much more equitable and fair. The problem is that we former players do not know what proposals are even being considered by the NFL and NFLPA. Moreover, the Chapter Officers and Members apparently have not even been consulted on how they would prefer to have the $620 M in the Legacy Benefit distributed.
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Both this NFL friend, and my former teammate who is an investment advisor, were very concerned about having the Legacy Benefit associated with the Bert Bell pension plan because this Legacy Benefit would then be subject to the “Quadro” (QDRO) which could subject players to having their wives or ex-wives claiming all or a portion of these Legacy Benefits. We all believe that there are a lot of former NFL players who have been through divorces and have ex-wives.
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PLAYERS WITH CREDITED SEASONS BEFORE AND AFTER 1993
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My friend, as you might suspect, was adamant about players who played in 1998 and afterward not necessarily needing Legacy Fund Benefits at age 45. He emphasized that the monthly pension benefit at age 55 increased to $470 per month in 1998. He also claimed that most, if not all, of the additional benefits that pre-93 players do not receive (Severance Pay, 5 years free Health Insurance, Second Career Savings, Health Reimbursement Account, Tuition Assistance, NFL Annuity, etc.) were in place those 1998 players who also played before 1993.
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When we discussed, the situation where a player might have played 10 years before 1993 and then only 1 or 2 years after 1993, my friend agreed that such a player should get some Legacy Fund benefit. But, for the player example he provided for a player who played from 1989 to 1998 (4 years before 1993, and 6 years 1993 and after) he maintained that such player did not necessarily need a Legacy Fund benefit at age 45. We discussed a couple possible compromises.
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First, perhaps include players who vested before 1993, but who ended their careers say in 1995 or before. That way a player who played from 1989 to 1995 and who would have played 4 years prior to 1993 and 3 years 1993 and after, would receive a Legacy Benefit. A player who played 10 years before from 1993 and 3 years afterward (1983 to 1995) would likewise receive a Legacy Benefit.
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Second, allow players with credited seasons before and after 1993 to receive the Legacy Fund Benefit, but require that the Legacy Benefit not begin until age 55. That would address, in part, the issue raised with regard to a player who receives a Legacy Benefit at age 45 receiving legacy benefits for 20 more years than a player who receives a Legacy Benefit starting at age 65, assuming these two players live the same number of years. Instead of receiving 20 more years of Legacy Benefit, the 45 year old player who did not begin receiving the benefit until age 55 would then receive 10 instead of 20 more years of Legacy Benefit payments than the player age 65. And, both players would receive more than $114 per month per credited season because there would be additional funds retained longer in the Legacy Benefit plan.
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CONCLUSION
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At the end of our phone conference, my NFL player friend declared and asked: “Hell, Jim, it’s supposed to be a Legacy Fund! Who has the greater Legacy? Players who are 65 and over who played in the 50′s, 60′s, and 70′s, or players 45 and under who played in the 90′s and after 2000?”
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Sincerely,
Jim McFarland
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From: Dewey Mcclain
Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011
Subject: Re: Who Has the Greater Legacy?
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Jim,my comment will always be civil and passionate for those players who took early pension, I have empathy with you and do hope they have empathy with those of us who did not take an earl pension. Think about a person who took his pension at 45 and now is 65, have no idea how much he has received over the past 20 years…on the low side 10,000 per year(about 835 a month), he has already collected 200,000 … do not think what he has collected should come into play and as I said earlier, why the choice was made is between him and his family. There will never be a equitable way to do this fund/benefit, only if we all played the same time ,same year etc…, what we must do is wait on the document to see exactly what is in it…and how can we maximize it for those that played this game when, that is a legacy in itself…
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I lost 3 members in a span of 30 days ,ages 49, 54 and 65, loyal, good members and sometime I think of them and wonder if there was something that could of been done sooner or earlier for them and their families…now we must do what we can for those that are here and hope they know that you ,I and all of those in leadership roles are doing the very best for them with what we have to work with…We get in trouble throwing out numbers,speculating,assuming etc… and do know I will stay away from that until the Legacy is official…The one thing I do know, is who does not have the Greater Legacy and it is those 3 that I mention in the first sentence of this paragraph and many others…
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Always,
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Dewey
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From: Jim McFarland
Subject: Need for $1,000 per month Minimum Legacy Benefit
Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011
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Dear Dewey,
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You have a big heart. You are a man of great compassion. I am pleased that you are a friend to all of us former players.
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My former roommate with the Cardinals, Bob Young, died at 52 years of age.
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My friend and former Nebraska and Miami Dolphins player, Andra Franklin, died 2 years ago of congestive heart failure at age 47. He was apparently living alone in a trailer home and had no health insurance.
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One of my former teammates was released a year or two ago from an alcohol rehabilitation facility. He has total social security disability since can only walk with the aid of a walker. He did not qualify for NFL disability. He took his pension early because of his disability and is anxious to hear how much legacy benefit he will receive.
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One of our Nebraska Chapter Members, despite my advice to wait, took his pension a couple years ago at approximately age 57. When I asked him why he had taken his pension early, he said he recently had a stroke, lost his job, and needed the supplemental income. Besides, he did not know how much longer he would live. He is anxious to hear how much additional legacy benefit he will receive.
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There are many reasons why I believe we need to at least provide a Minimum $1,000 per month legacy fund benefit for the pre-93 players. Getting less than $1,000 per month such as $456 or $570 per month is going to be a big disappointment for many truly needy players while some former players with 10 to 15 credited seasons who are doing well as television commentators, actors, successful businessmen and the like would be getting almost 3 to 4 times as much.
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Best Regards,
Jim McFarland
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From: Sam McCullum
Date: Wed, Aug 24, 2011
Subject: FW: Need for $1,000 per month Minimum Legacy Benefit
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Northwest Chapter Members:
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You can see by the long e-mails below that a number of our fellow former players have a difference of opinion on how things should be handled. This is just a sampling of what has been ongoing daily for the past two weeks, just thought you would like to see where the conversations has been going as of late.
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I have been waiting to get an update on the status of the Legacy Funds from the NFLPA office. What I got today was that the NFLPA has presented a proposed structure for distribution of the funds, and the NFL has not come back with their counter proposal. Once they do, the differences will have to be negotiated until they have an agreement. I asked about the date of August 18th that was on the table as the last day for this to get done, and I was told that was the date for proposals to be submitted, how long can it take to resolve, not sure. The NFL Alumni has circulated a survey asking for input from players, plus they have said that the process has been delayed anywhere from 30 – 90 days. The bottom line is the NFLPA and the NFL are still involved in collective bargaining on a number of issues and this is one of them. I don’t have firm date when this will be done, but the dollars are on the table and they will be spent on former players, exactly how much and when is still up in the air.
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The medical benefits portion I am being told is supposed to be active in early to mid-September, again they are still involved in bargaining and that time line may change.
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The best advice is, don’t spend it before you get it.
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I have attached the minutes from the last meeting for your review. If any of you wants to volunteer to be on the scholarship review and selection committee, please contact Jeff, Ron or Richard. If any of you wants to be involved with the AARP or the Homebuilders Association groups, please let me know.
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Take Care.
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Sam
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What; Minutes – NFLPA Former Players Meeting Northwest Chapter
When: August 16, 2011
Where: Westin Hotel / Seattle
Time: 6:30 – 8:30 PM
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Attendees: Sam McCullum, Jeff Williams, Dave Meggyesy, Ron Medved, Ron Howard, Markus Koch, Norm Evans, Richard Hicks,
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The Meeting was called to order at 6:45 PM
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• Minutes of the May, 2011 meeting, motion was made and seconded.
• The minutes were approved.
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President Sam McCullum welcomed the group;
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• Richard Hicks, Ron Howard and Jeff Williams Discussed the scholarship program and the various guidelines. Also discussed a plan of action to get the program off and running.
• Jeff Williams volunteered to chair the program and he will be sending out a plan to get the right schools and school districts involved in the process. Richard shared the structure to the committee (5 members) that will need to be put together to review applications and in the end select the winners.
• Discussed the School of Legends program and asked those who have not signed up to do so, as the first checks have come out to all those that have.
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• Discussed the Cross over programs:
o Nesby Glasgow working with Mitch Koch of Microsoft will update the group in the next meeting (Xbox).
o AARP: Sam will send out local contacts to members and see if someone will take on and develop this relationship.
o Home Builders Association: Sam will send out the local contacts to members and see if someone will take on and develop this relationship.
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• CAB: Summaries of the agreement was passed out and discussed. The new benefits programs will be effective sometime after the first of September. The Legacy Fund final structure is to be determined by August 18th and once available it will be passed on to the chapter members.
• Meeting adjourned at 8:15pm
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Next meeting date is targeted for Tuesday October11, 2011, either at the Microsoft Campus or at the Seahawks training facility.
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Robbie Jones
August 29th, 2011 at 8:48 am #
Time Lapse is strategic. They want a bunch of dumb and “almost” really-mad-enough jocks to calm down. Time to let it all blow over. Jocks will settle back into passivity. I guess that’s what is expected of us.
P.S. – I guess I DO count myself amongst the dumb!
Robbie Jones
New York Giants
1984 – 1987
Dave Pear
August 29th, 2011 at 10:27 am #
Robert Lee has always said, “It’s a well-known rule in the banking business that whoever touches the money first always gets paid” – and controls it.
Nolan Harrison III: On behalf of ALL retired players (especially the pre-1993 players), I kindly request that you keep your hands off any retired players money, funds, benefits, and related commissions and fees! You should be content with your $132, 000 annual salary (plus expenses) from the NFLPA leadership.
Oh – I forgot, now you guys claim to be a union once again. Whatever!
Regards,
Dave & Heidi Pear
NFL Retirees’ ‘Legacy Fund’ Boost an Obvious Throwaway Line of Lockout-Ending CBA « Concussion Inc. – Author Irvin Muchnick
August 29th, 2011 at 10:53 am #
[...] See “More unanswered questions on pre-93 issues,” http://davepear.com/blog/2011/08/more-unanswered-questions-pre-93-issues/. [...]
Thomas Henderson
August 29th, 2011 at 11:30 am #
Gentlemen,
All of your arguments are legit. My hope is someday someone starts a fight on healthcare. Who took early benefits and all that is an important conversation and debate. But healthcare is an even bigger deal.
Just sayin’…
Thomas “Hollywood” Henderson
Dallas Cowboys (San Francisco 49′ers, Houston Oilers) Miami Dolphins
1975 – 1982
Janet & Michael C. McCoy
August 29th, 2011 at 1:54 pm #
This is Michael McCoy’s wife.
I spoke with the benefits office last week and was told that all players should receive a letter within the next two weeks explaining what the new plan will be. According to that office, they have no information as of yet. I did ask if the next letter we receive will be informative to each player and not a blanket letter as we have received in the past. I was told, “I will put my two cents in and ask.”
Wow! I was not expecting to hear that! Does that mean there will be a different benefit for each retired player? Other than the calculations, we should all be hearing the same thing.
Janet Brown-McCoy
for Mike McCoy
Green Bay Packers
1976 – 1983
Cody C. Jones
August 29th, 2011 at 4:59 pm #
Money, money, money, money, money. Most of us retired players really need it. And we all wish we had more of it. At first glance, I thought the Legacy Fund would add a piece to our wishes. However, now it appears to be a small piece. But perhaps the NFLPA’s proposal to the owners has not been accepted or counted yet. Could well be that the NFL may have a bigger heart than the NFLPA, I guess. Only time will tell.
Like Hollywood Henderson says, maybe some health care benefits should be in the offering too. In any case, I hope some genuine time and thought was put into the proposal that they were supposed to be putting together.
Cody Jones
Los Angeles Rams
1974 – 1982
Barb & Mike Sandusky
August 29th, 2011 at 7:31 pm #
I’ve said it before but it bears repeating: If someone could contact filmmaker Michael Moore, I’d bet that lots of financial issues would be magically solved for the pre-’93 former players! Let Mr. Moore start snooping around. How long do you think it would take before the money would come rolling in the retirees’ direction?!! The publicity alone would cause huge changes once the public is made aware of how shamefully the older players were treated!
Mike & Barb Sandusky
Pittsburgh Steelers
1957 – 1965
Bob Pollard
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:39 pm #
I think it’s a betrayal of trust and loyalty to use us (the pre-’93 players) and then tell us to be quiet and you’ll send us what’s left over (maybe). I also agree with Hollywood Henderson about adding healthcare to pre-’93ers benefits.
Pre-’93 retirees have more health issues and less money than the younger retirees and current players can even begin to imagine.
Bob Pollard
New Orleans Saints, St. Louis Cardinals
1971 – 1981
Judson Flint
October 21st, 2011 at 8:13 pm #
$620 million divided by 2500 players equals $2066 a month per player for ten years. Keep it simple and let everyone get the same amount. But you have people who will want to keep early retirement retirees from getting the same as 55- or 65-year old retirees saying how they will get more – hogwash! Pay everyone the same amount… that’s the fair thing to do.
Judson Flint
Cleveland Browns, Buffalo Bills
1980 – 1983
Judson Flint
October 26th, 2011 at 11:10 am #
This Legacy Fund which is now being called a benefit should be separate and apart from any Bert Bell criterion based on credited seasons. This money has been set aside to BOOST pre-1993′s pensions only and therefore it should be divided equally among the 2500 players who make up that number. When you do the math, everyone gets $2,066.70 a month for ten years.
Why make it a hard thing to do when it’s obvious that it’s the right thing to do for players who are now suffering all kinds of conditions? $2066.70 a month for everyone whether you played 10 or 4 years in the NFL. What’s all the discussion on how to pay it out? JUST PAY IT OUT EQUALLY! No one should get more or less than the next person since the money allocated is to help everyone. Why should one get more than another? Because you played more years? You are in the HOF? Because you’re 65 or 70? You can come up with a lot of scenarios to this question but the bottom line is that this money is for pensions only and should be paid out equally.
It just frustrates me that we have people who are supposed to be so smart considering our needs. They just can’t seem to realize: Keep it simple and give everyone the same thing.
Judson Flint
Cleveland Browns, Buffalo Bills
1980 – 1983
Henry Bradley
October 27th, 2011 at 3:20 am #
I agree with Judson Flint about paying everyone the same. I ‘only’ played five years; however, I left the game because I got hurt. Are you telling me because I played nose-tackle – the most physical job on a team – that I do not deserve the same amount? I’m a angry person because of the way I was treated and continue to be treated by people who do not understand our plight. I have been taking pain medication since leaving the Browns in 1983. Sometimes I wonder how it would feel not to have pain.
Just pay me so maybe I can finally go and visit family.
Henry Bradley
Cleveland Browns
1979 – 1982
Frederick "Rick" Hayes
October 27th, 2011 at 1:16 pm #
Dear Mr. Flint:
I have to admit that my head hurts trying to keep up with the several lawsuits and the issues we are facing post-CBA agreement. I read your statements with interest and some agreement and then wondered what you would be saying if you had played from 1980 – 1982? How do the parties feel about the “unvested” Former Players?
Personal Regards with Aloha,
Rick Hayes
L.A. Rams 1974
UW Huskies 1969-1973
Burt Grossman
October 27th, 2011 at 8:55 pm #
Well, looks like 4 months until we see our great new pension package. $114 a month extra must be really hard to add up…
Burt Grossman
San Diego Chargers, Philadelphia Eagles
1989 -1994
Burt Grossman
November 1st, 2011 at 8:17 pm #
Why do I get the feeling I’ll be back here in four weeks posting the same comment? Except it’ll just change from four months to five?
Burt Grossman